Engelfried Maschinentechnik GmbH - Stockist for used machines

Table dimensions - mm︱Motor output 7,5 kW︱Spindle diameter 40 mm︱reus 6000 U/min︱Weight 300 kg︱Year 2018 ︱

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Universal profiler Götzinger UP 1730 Machine for frontal and cross-side machining. Different application technology for wood products First-class surface quality of machined workpieces due to high speed, Particularly stable bearing of the milling shaft and through synchronous milling. Rapid tool change through one-sided mounted cutter shaft and through swiveling clamping device. The whole work process, such as clamping, pneumatic-hydraulic table feed with speed control (stepless) and fast reverse. By exchanging the milling segments and by changing the attachment points can be up to ten different with a single profile milling set Create profile companies. Technical specifications: Cutting depth max .: 30 mm Milling height max .: 150 mm Voltage cross section per stroke max. Softwood: 60 cm² Motor power: 7.5 kW Speed: 6000 rpm Tool circle maximum: 180 mm Tool span: 200 mm Milling spindle diameter: 40 mm Milling spindle clamping length: 200 mm Working cycles max. per minute: 8 Compressed air connection: 6 bar Air requirement per working cycle: 14 l Air supply extraction: 3000m³ / h Dimensions: L / W / H: 1300 x 700 x 1170 mm Weight: 300 kg 380 V, 50 Hz (technical data according to manufacturer - without guarantee!)

Workpiece dimensions , mm︱Total length 5500mm mm︱Feed speed 37 m/min.︱

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Workpiece return RP-S NT --------------------------------- Return device with tubular steel construction with high resistance to guarantee of robustness and solidity over time. A powered conveyor belt for the Workpiece transport to the operator. The conveyor belt is equipped with brakes equipped with wheels. 9 rolls processing width 220 mm Length 2500mm adjustable height 900 mm Roller diameter 60 mm with adjustable Inclination 0°-15°, variable center distance, at least 200 mm Unloading chute depth 900 mm 9 inclined idler roller aggregates with adjustable width and variable center distance from at least 200 mm Driven belt with a width of 300 mm Length 5500mm Motor 0.37 KW speed 37 m/min --------------------------------- (Technical information according to the manufacturer - without guarantee!

axis stroke (X,Y,Z) unbegrenzt, 1000, 60 mm︱Number of spindle head vertical 10 St.︱Number of spindles head horizontal 6 St.︱milling motor 4,5 kW︱

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CNC machining center at a Special PRICE! MASTERWOOD TF 100 2.0 Partnership Edition Furnishing: ----------------------------------------------------- - Drilling head with 16 drills for 5-sided machining - Grooving saw unit - Milling unit with 6-fold tool changer - incl. grooving saw blade, 2 diamond cutters, 1 WPL finishing cutter - Preparation for CLAMEX and door package - 2 foldable roller conveyors - program-controlled central lubrication ----------------------------------------------------- SPECIAL PRICE 44,990.00 euros (plus VAT) ex works ----------------------------------------------------- Freight, installation, instruction within Germany including 8-hour training individually and on site SPECIAL PRICE 3,000.00 euros (plus VAT) Partnership Edition Options: ----------------------------------------------------- Complete package for CLAMEX connectors consisting of: ----------------------------------------------------- - Angular gear with CLAMEX cutter incl. special recording in the tool changer and software adjustment - Original Lamello tool package: 2x P-System diamond milling cutters, milling arbor - Voucher for 300 pairs of CLAMEX P-14, 80 pairs of TENSO P-14 SPECIAL PRICE 3,500.00 euros (plus VAT) Complete door package consisting of: ----------------------------------------------------- - Angular gear with lock case cutter, special mount in - Tool changer, software adaptation including macro for lock case SPECIAL PRICE 3,500.00 euros (plus VAT) Software package PaletteCAD start + CAM connection ----------------------------------------------------- Our premium software with a perfectly coordinated CNC interface - with us of course already including CLAMEX macro. SPECIAL PRICE 3,000.00 euros (plus VAT) Promotional prices valid while stocks last. Subject to prior sale. Detailed description: The Masterwood CNC machining center PROJECT TF is ideal for complex CNC machining in the smallest of spaces, both for solid wood, panel materials or others Materials. Advantages: - Very small footprint - Maximum time savings thanks to extremely fast production times - Fast amortization due to the low purchase price - Fast learning of the technology through the simplest operation - Cleanliness of the workpieces with low suction power due to processing from underneath - Extremely fast, easy and variable programming with the Software MASTERWORK (standard) - Extremely fast and easy programming complete Cabinets through the use of TrunCAD (option) Technical specifications: Axles: X-axis: Max. workpiece length: unlimited, Min. workpiece length: 250mm Travel speed: 0-25 m/min. Y-axis: Max. workpiece width: 1,000mm for all aggregates Min. workpiece width: 80mm Travel speed: 0-50 m/min. Z-axis: Max. workpiece thickness: 60mm Min. workpiece thickness: 10mm Travel speed: 0-20 m/min. The minimum and maximum workpiece sizes are depending on the weight and also on the ratio length to width! Aggregates: 16 drilling head: vertical spindles in the X direction: 5 pieces vertical spindles in Y direction: 5 pieces horizontal double drilling spindle in X-direction: 2+2 pieces horizontal double drilling spindle in Y-direction: 1+1 piece Distance drilling spindles: 32mm Spindle speed: 4,000 rpm. Engine: 1.7kw Grooving saw: in the X direction Speed: 4,000 rpm. Max. saw blade diameter: 125mm Motor: 1.7 kW (The grooving saw is integrated in the drill head) Steering: Personal Computer HP Compaq 6000 Pro SFF PC Processor: Intel Celeron E3300 @ 2.50GHZ RAM: 1GB Hard disk: 300GB CD ROM drive 17'' LCD color screen Video card integrated 512 MB 2 Ethernet cards Interfaces: 2 serial RS 232 - 1 parallel - 10 USB - 1 ESATA Keyboard: Input PS 2 Mouse: Input PS 2 Operating system: Windows 7 professional Program: MASTERWORK MACHINE VERSION Further data: Required air pressure: 8 bar Air consumption: max. 750 l/min. suction: Volume: 2,000 m³/h Air speed: 25 - 30 m/sec. Extraction nozzle: 1 x 150mm Other features: - Air tables at work area - Roller table in the infeed and outfeed - Sensor for plate measurement - Ball screw and linear guides - Rack and pinion drive - Central lubrication - Import of DXF files "PARTNERSHIP EDITION" consisting of: milling unit, including MASTERWORK software extension Speed: 1,000 to 18,000 rpm. Motor: 4.5 kW with ISO 30 intake incl. integrated suction control (when drilling only the drill head, when milling only the milling unit sucked off) 6-fold tool changer 3 ISO 30 cones including collet Tool equipment, consisting of: HW dowel drill: 5 pieces 5mm - GL 70mm - blind hole drill 1 piece 5mm - GL 70mm - through drill 4 pieces 8mm - GL 57.5mm - blind hole drill 2 pieces 10mm - GL 57.5mm - blind hole drill bits 1 piece 10mm - GL 70mm - blind hole drill 1 piece 8mm - GL 70mm - blind hole drill 1 piece 15mm - GL 70mm - blind hole drill 1 piece 35mm - GL 70mm - blind hole drill 1 HW grooving saw blade d=125mm, bore=20mm, width: 3.2mm, Z=24 WZ 1 DIA cutter, right - GL=103mm, NL=43mm, D=18mm, shank: 20x50mm, Z 1+1 1 DIA cutter, left - GL=103mm, NL=43mm, D=18mm, shank: 20x50mm, Z 1+1 1 solid carbide finishing cutter, right, D=10mm Foldable roller conveyor in the inlet and outlet Automatic central lubrication (Technical information according to the manufacturer - without guarantee!)

axis stroke (X,Y,Z) 3950,2145,555 mm︱Number of spindle head vertical 13 St.︱Number of spindles head horizontal 6 St.︱Number of tools 22 St.︱Number of milling agregates 1 St.︱working dimensions 3200x2000x200 mm︱Motor output 12 kW︱Control Beckhoff CNC︱Number of axles 5 St.︱

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Masterwood Project 385 CNC-Bearbeitungszentrum --------------------------------------------- 5-Achs CNC-Bearbeitungszentrum in Auslegerbauweise (dadurch sehr große PLatten auflegbar) für Innenausbau, Plattenbearbeitungen aller Art. Kurze Zusammenfassung: --------------------------------------------- Verfahrwege X = 3950 mm; Y = 2145 mm; Z = 555 mm Arbeitsbereich: X = 3200 mm; Y = 2000 mm; Z = 200 mm 1 Stk. 5-Achs-Hochleistungsspindel, 12 kW, mit HSK 63 F Aufnahme 1 Stk. fest installierter Bohrkopf mit 19 Spindeln mit 7 einzeln abrufbaren Vertikalbohrspindeln X-Richtung mit 6 einzeln abrufbaren Vertikalbohrspindeln Y-Richtung mit 2 doppelten Horizontalbohrspindeln X-Richtung und 1 doppelte Horizontalbohrspindel in Y-Richtung Sägeaggregat in Bohrkopf integriert Karussellwerkzeugwechsler mit 22 Plätzen und 102 mm Rasterabstand Konsolentisch mit 6 Traversen Werkstückanhebevorrichtung 24 Stk. Vakuummspanner für Platten und Innenausbau 1 Stk. Vakuumpumpe 100m3/h CE Schutzvorrichtung mit Bumper und Schutzgitter Referenzanschläge mit Endlauffühler Referenzring für Winkelgetriebe KIT Bogenbearbeitung (Vorbereitung für Einsatz von Massivholzspannern) Automatische Messvorrichtung für Werkzeuglänge Fernbedienung Beckhoff-Steuerung und Bosch Motorisierung Konstruktions-Software Masterwork: 2D-Wop für Standardanwendung Plattenbearbeitung/Innenausbau, Rundbogen, Türen Masterwork Funktion Lamelloverbindung Master 3D Stufe 2: für komplexere Bearbeitungen, optional auch erweiterbar für 5-Achs voll interpolierend Fracht und Montage innerhalb Deutschland Technik und Dienstleistungen gemäß beiliegender ausführliche Beschreibung --------------------------------------------- SONDERPREIS in dieser Ausführung: 99.990,00 Euro zzgl. St.! --------------------------------------------- Ausführliche Beschreibung siehe PDF anbei. Mehr Optionen auf Anfrage! (technische Angaben laut Hersteller- ohne Gewähr!)

axis stroke (X,Y,Z) 4062, 2,922,660 mm︱Number of spindle head vertical 13 St.︱Number of spindles head horizontal 6 St.︱Number of tools 27 St.︱Number of milling agregates 1 St.︱working dimensions 3200,1500,200 mm︱Motor output 12 kW︱control BECKHOFF ︱

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MASTERWOOD Project 385 (Winner) ------------------------------------- Exhibition machine built in 2021, available immediately! 5-axis CNC machining center in portal design for use for Interior fittings, doors, stairs optionally expandable with solid wood clamps Frame processing and arched windows Short Summary: ----------------------------------------------- Workspace: X = 3200mm ; Y = 1500mm; Z = 200mm 1 piece 5-axis high-performance spindle, 12 kW, with HSK 63 F mount 1 piece of permanently installed drill head with 19 spindles with 7 individually accessible vertical drilling spindles in the X direction with 6 individually accessible vertical drilling spindles in Y direction with 2 double horizontal drilling spindles in X direction and 1 double horizontal drilling spindle in Y direction Sawing unit integrated into the drill head 27 tool changing positions: Carousel tool changer with 22 positions and 102 mm grid spacing Linear 5-fold tool magazine for large tool diameters Original SCHMALZ tubeless work table. Console table with 6 traverses Workpiece lifting device Automatic tool length measuring device. Pack of 12 original Schmalz vacuum cleaners 114 x 140 mm height = 125 mm 1 piece Becker vacuum pump 100m3/h 1 piece chip conveyor belt Construction software Masterwork: 2D-Wop for standard application panel processing/interior construction, arches, doors Master 3D Level 2: for more complex processing, Optionally also expandable for 5-axis fully interpolating Prepared for the use of solid wood tensioners (round arches), Tensioner offered as an option if needed later Technology according to the enclosed, detailed description ----------------------------------------------- Total price in this version from the Oberkochen warehouse: on request! ----------------------------------------------- Freight and commissioning on request! Options for frame production/round arch with additional costs: ----------------------------------------------- Reference ring for holding chip guide elements on 5-axis electrospindles with HSK 63F mounts: 410.00 euros Basic kit for clamping arch elements - 6 pneumatic tensioners with two movements for arch elements: 7,090.00 euros (technical information according to the manufacturer - no guarantee!) Chip guide elements, price per piece: 460.00 euros All prices mentioned are net, plus tax. (technical information according to the manufacturer - no guarantee!)

Number of sanding units 1 St.︱Profile width 390 mm︱Profile height max. 390 mm︱

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Oscillation ja ja / nein︱ ja ja/nein︱ ja ja/nein︱tiltable up to 45/90 Grad︱Motor output 3 kW︱Table dimensions 750x350 mm︱sanding width 150 mm︱Weight 200 kg︱

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sanding width 300 mm︱sanding height 6-230 mm︱Brushing equipment ja ︱

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Löwer double-sided grinding machine DSM 3304 GDR --------------------------------- Manufacturer short description: Double-sided single wood sander for sanding of solid wood such as window wood or Furniture components made of MDF etc. Stable top design with electronic articulated pressure shoes for fine grinding well-planed or veneered surfaces. Sanding units arranged one after the other Fine grinding, disc aggregates for defibering grinding, Cleaning brush, from above and below as follows: 1. Belt sanding unit with articulated pressure shoe 2. Belt sanding unit with articulated pressure shoe 3. Disc unit with brush sanding flaps diameter 320mm 4. Cleaning brush with Tempicofibre trim diameter 120mm --------------------------------- detailed long text of the manufacturer's description as well as the Installation dimensions as a PDF attachment --------------------------------- (Technical information according to the manufacturer - no guarantee!)

Working width 1350 mm︱Number of sanding units 2 st.︱Workpiece thickness max. 160 mm︱sanding belt measurements 1370 x 2150 mm︱Feed motor 0,75 PS︱

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Working width 950 mm︱Number of sanding units 1 st.︱Workpiece thickness max. 160 mm︱sanding belt measurements 970 x 2150 mm︱Feed motor 0,55 kW︱

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Working width 1350 mm︱Number of sanding units 2 st.︱Workpiece thickness max. 160 mm︱sanding belt measurements 1370 x 2150 mm︱Feed motor 0,75 PS︱

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Working width 1350 mm︱Number of sanding units 1 st.︱Workpiece thickness max. 160 mm︱sanding belt measurements 1370 x 2150 mm︱Feed motor 0,75 PS︱

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Unitek wide belt sander Excel LC 1350 1N KRT --------------------------- 1-BELT MACHINE WITH COMBI UNIT ROLLER/SHOE FOR SOLID WOOD VENEER AND INTERMEDIATE LACQUER SANDING - Usable WORKING WIDTH mm 1350 - GRINDING BELT LENGTH mm 1370 X 2150 - MAX. WORKPIECE THICKNESS mm 160 - Steel CALIBRATION ROLLER mm 180 - GRINDING SHOE WIDTH mm 50 - BAND MOTOR POWER HP 15 - BELT SPEED m/s 18 - FEED MOTOR POWER HP 0.75 - Adjustment gear feed carpet with infinitely adjustable speed m/min 4/ 20 - HEIGHT ADJUSTMENT MOTOR HP 0.33 - Mechanical BAND OSCILLATION “ECO GEAR PATENT SYSTEM” - 1 PC. DRUM BRAKE for belt braking - Swivel ROLLER for belt tension - 2 pcs. PRESSURE ROLLERS; with rubber coating - EMERGENCY STOP SWITCH EDGE in the inlet - ELECTRONIC DISPLAY of workpiece thickness - 2 PCS. ROLLER CONVEYORS with 2 rollers each in the inlet and outlet - AUTOMATIC CENTERING OF THE FEED CARPET - 1 SUCTION PORT with 160 mm Ø - AUTOMATIC TABLE POSITIONING New patented band oscillation system 1. without valves 2. without light barrier 3. not sensitive to dust 4. Energy saving environmentally friendly system The machine model has been running non-stop with the system in question since 2008 lateral belt outlet!!!! 196-00262 Unitek surcharge for frequency controlled feed speed 226-00001 Unitek rubber calibration roller 95 SH (same for all models) 226-00014 Unitek Pneumatic link shoe with application control synchronous to Feed speed (same for Winner and Excel 1100 mm) 226-00021 Unitek belt motor power with 18.4 kW instead of 14.7 kW (PRO MOTOR) 196-00250 Unitek 1 piece. oscillating time-controlled belt cleaning device 196-00285 Unitek pedal control table UP/DOWN (same for all models) 196-00237 Unitek Automatic table lowering in case of emergency stop (same for all models) 226-00035 Unitek surcharge for front pull-out roller up to max 500 mm 196-00266 Unitek Surcharge for rear pull-out roller up to max 500 mm ---------------------------- Machine price in the above version on request! ---------------------------- Options with additional costs: Surcharge for electronic articulated sanding pad with 24 segments (item no. 196-00281) €7,270.00 196-00350 Electronic control of machine functions with touchscreen 7'' (same for all models) not together with electron. Sanding shoe €3,200.00 226-00033 Unitek Surcharge for fixed working height for 1-belt machine €4,710.00 ---------------------------- SERVICES: 189-00067 Assembly and instruction €1,250.00 189-00018 Freight costs €1,300.00 ---------------------------- (technical data according to the manufacturer - no guarantee!)

Working width 300 mm︱Number of rollers 2 St.︱Feed speed 20 m/min.︱weight 300 kg︱Dimensions (L/W/H) 4000x600x1500 mm︱

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Working width 3000 mm︱working depth 1200 mm︱Number of pressing surfaces 3 Stk.︱range L-W-H 4500 x 2200 x 2100 mm︱Weight 1500 kg︱

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TRIMWEX hydraulische 3 - Etagenpresse Typ SLV - HPR3 - 100 Technische Daten - Arbeitslänge 3000 mm - Arbeitsbreite 1200 mm - Verleimdicke 20 - 100 mm - Anzahl der Ebene: 3 - Verpressung erfolgt mit einseitigem hydraulischen Zylinder - Anzahl der Zylinder pro Ebene 6 - die Druckzylinder sind fest - Zylindertyp Ø 50 x 150 mm - Spezifische Druck 4,5 kg/cm2 - Anzahl der Niederhaltern pro Ebene 4 - jeder Niederhalter hat einen pneumatischen Zylinder - Typ der pneumatische Zylinder Ø 50 x 75 mm - jeder Niederhalter hat eigenes Ventil für Ein/Aus der Luft - Druckregulation mit Regulator - Hydraulisches Aggregat - Pumpendurchfluss 5,5 l - Leistung der Hydromotor 2,20 kW - max. Druck für der Hydromotor 30 - 130 bar - Parkplatz für die Niederhalter - Drehen der Etagen erfolgt manuell PREIS: SLV - HPR3 - 3.0 - 1.2 - 100 EUR Auf Anfrage Optionen - Pneumatisches Drehen - Drehen mit Handgetriebemotor (Handrad) (technische Angaben laut Hersteller - ohne Gewähr!)

Plate dimensions 2500,1250 mm︱Daylight opening 400 mm︱Number of daylights 1 St.︱Specific pressure 2,2 kg/cm²︱Motor output 2,2 kW︱

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Plate dimensions 2200x1100 mm︱Daylight opening 400 mm︱Number of daylights 1 St.︱Motor output 12 kW︱

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Ott veneer press Junior 60 Aluminum cover plates screwed on from operational liquidation from our customer ---------------------------- Self-dismantling and loading by buyer ---------------------------- (Technical information according to the manufacturer - no guarantee!

Feed speed , m/min.︱Dimensions (L/W/H) , mm︱total power requirement , kw︱weight of the machine ca. , kg︱Year , 0︱Arm length , mm︱

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1 KUPER veneer splicing machine FW Junior 920 --------------------------------- with air heating system. For sale on behalf of the customer in the IS condition! For assembling veneers with thicknesses of approx. 0.4 - 2.0 mm. A special glue thread is used as the adhesive medium and is zigzag or Wavy line is applied by a heated thread guide. Guaranteed tight joint, high adhesion and tear resistance even with very wavy surfaces Veneer. During subsequent pressing, the glue thread is placed inside. Sanding the adhesive medium is therefore not necessary. Easy to use and efficient way of working Method that has now been proven 1000 times over. Specific features: - Torsion-free C-stand construction made of steel - Resistant PUR paint - Discus disc system with tolerance compensation mechanism - 4 - step switch for heating output preselection - maintenance-free DU heating plain bearing - Air regulation valve with maintenance unit - hard chrome-plated pressure roller - electrically controlled thread tear-off roller - fully automatic start/stop function via electrical contactor - Clear control panel with ammeter - 2 coil holder with dust and UV light protection hood Technical data: ----------------- Stand projection: 920 mm Feed: approx. 15 m/min. Veneer thickness: approx. 0.4 - 2.0 mm Drive: 0.18 KW Operating voltage: 400 volts, 50 Hz, 3 Ph. Total connection value: 0.5 KW Air consumption: 10 NL/min. Net weight: approx. 166 kg ----------------- (technical data according to manufacturer - no guarantee!)

Dowel insertingunits ja St.︱Number of spindles 1 St.︱Dowel diameter 8 mm︱boring diameter 8 mm︱Number of heads horizontal 1 St.︱Number of heads vertical 1 St.︱loading dimensions L x W x H 4000x1500x2000 mm︱weight 2000 kg︱

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WinDoor 10 dowel driving machine from operational liquidation of our customer ---------------------------------- Manufacturer description: EQUIPPING THE HORIZONTAL DRILLING STATION 1 drill motor 0.9 KW with 1 drill spindle Drill speed: 3,000 rpm Drilling depth: max. 60 mm Drill holder in collet, with dowel hole blowing 1 piece dowel hole drill D = 8 mm Z AXIS (DRILLING HEIGHT): Program controlled at 6 drilling heights Y-AXIS (DRILLING DEPTH): Program-controlled, automatic adjustment to 6 different dimensions. EQUIPPING THE GLUE APPLICATION AND DOWEL INSERTION STATION 1 dowel driving tool Dowel diameter 8 mm Dowel length 60 mm Dowel projection variable TOLERANCES FOR WOODEN DOWELS Dowel length: +/- 1 mm Dowel diameter: + 0.1 / - 0.2 mm ELECTRONIC GLUE MONITORING ELC (patented) The monitoring device is mounted in front of the glue valve. With each work cycle (glue splashes) the glue flow increases measured. If the glue valve is switched on, there will be no When glue is sprayed, the machine stops working and displays the relevant glue valve on the control cabinet. ----------------- Self-dismantling and loading by buyer ----------------- (Technical information according to the manufacturer - no guarantee!

Length , mm︱Depth , mm︱Height , mm︱

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3 pieces of shelf storage from operational liquidation of our customer ---------------------------- Self-dismantling and loading by buyer ---------------------------- (Technical information according to the manufacturer - no guarantee!

1100x1000 mm︱ 900 kg︱

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0 , 0︱0 , kg︱

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Transport trolley --------------------- 1 x RUCHSER RU-LGT mobile 3 x RUCHSE RU-PW-SH mobile + 3 x mobile wooden carts from operational liquidation of our customer ---------------------------- Self-dismantling and loading by buyer ---------------------------- (Technical information according to the manufacturer - no guarantee!

160 mm︱ 1447 m³/h︱ 2450 pa︱Filter capacity 9,5 m²︱Motor output 2,2 kW︱

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300 mm︱ 6000 m³/h︱ 2400 pa︱Filter capacity 31,6 m²︱Motor output 7,5 kW︱

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0 250 mm︱0 3530 m³/h︱0 2500 pa︱Dimensions (L/W/H) 3.350x1.020x2.290 mm︱engine output 5,5 kW︱turning speeds 2800 U/min︱compressed air Pmax 8,0 bar︱weight 1100 kg︱

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Nestro dust extractor NE 250 W For sale on behalf of the customer ex location -------------------------- Manufacturer description: Dust extractor with pneumatic shaking and automatic water extinguishing system Including suction nozzle d=300 mm, 5 m cable with plug and reversing switch, electric motor 5.5 kW 400V/50 Hz, on/off switch, potential-free Contact for machine monitoring, motor protection switch, Pressure difference display, 3 mobile dust bins Clamp bracket, 3 chip collection bags (PE) 600x600 mm, i=1100mm Housing made of galvanized sheet steel Technical data: Nominal volume flow 3,530 m3/h associated negative pressure 2,500 Pa Suction side connection d=250 mm Continuous operation mode Type of current: three-phase Power consumption 5.5 kW/11.5 A Filter area 23.2 m2 Dust bin volume (total) 480 l Weight approx. 1100 kg -------------------------- (Technical data according to the manufacturer, no guarantee!)